00:00:00.600 - 00:00:22.280

Uh Well, Norell, can you tell me when you're at college? And during that time, what parishes you were working with? I came to college in 1967 until 1970. I came originally as a city. The aim was that I uh do the TFL course, I'm gonna go

00:00:22.290 - 00:00:40.790

and work out the seats, right. And what about, so you didn't work with parish? Sorry, that question. Yes, I worked in one coach while I was here, but only one. And how many years was that for you? 01 perch for three years? Well, I really wanted

00:00:40.799 - 00:01:02.330

to talk to you about the training of women for ministry in the Sydney Diocese. And uh make some comparison between the years when you were at college. And now, so mainly to have you talk about those years, 67 to 70. Well, while you're at college, uh

00:01:02.340 - 00:01:21.480

what sort of training and ministry did the college offer at Moore College at deaconess house? It was very different. Well, at more college, as far as I can remember, uh there was no training in ministry and yet as I say that I think we were trained

00:01:21.519 - 00:01:39.779

in understanding the prayer book and how to use the prayer book. So presumably that encompasses ministry training. But that is about all I can remember. Most of the lectures that we attended were in association with the THL Silvers. But within Dean's House, we did have a,

00:01:40.470 - 00:02:00.449

a program of lectures that presumably were to help the ministry so that we did a course of religious education that involved going to the school at Saint Peter's, the primary school at Saint Peters and taking two classes, we were observed by the lecturer and critiqued on

00:02:00.459 - 00:02:26.110

those. We also had uh lectures from people who were in hospital chapel. Oh, other lectures from people who practiced in psychology. So we've got a basic grounding in psychology. Um with those situations, were they lecture style or you talked about being observed in classes? So there

00:02:26.119 - 00:02:41.830

was feedback there. But was there any other way of feedback on the sort of things you did or any experience you got in speaking or leaving small groups? Well, there were assignments attached to all of these things so that we were required to write essays or

00:02:41.929 - 00:03:07.809

give a seminar paper of some sort. But on the whole, the method was lecturing and they were girls only deaconess. Andrews took a strand of that pastoral course as it was called throughout all the years. I was at college. Well, just turning to um parish when

00:03:07.820 - 00:03:29.770

you spent those years in parish, perhaps you could just talk a bit about that, including things like perhaps the expectations that were on you from the parish itself and deaconess house and perhaps any support or instruction you received within the parish or from deacon. Yes, it

00:03:29.779 - 00:03:48.509

seems as I look back that, uh, the expectation was that every student who came into college would be attached to a parish as a student. Deke. And there was no instruction given at all as to what was involved in that presumably people assumed that if you

00:03:48.520 - 00:04:05.399

were coming to college, you would have an understanding of what was involved in parish work. I had very little, I hadn't been a Christian very long and therefore I had no understanding of what a parish worker did. And to my memory, nobody ever talked with me

00:04:05.410 - 00:04:19.649

about what a parish worker did. I was just told to go to this particular parish, talk to the minister and I talked to the minister. He employed me straight away and that was there and I was too inexperienced really to know the sorts of questions I

00:04:19.660 - 00:04:40.890

should have been asking. So the expectation I suppose at deaconess house was that you would be involved in a parish. And then there were other expectations along with that, that uh it didn't really matter what your abilities were that you would still uh be involved with

00:04:40.899 - 00:04:56.350

Harish. Even if perhaps you weren't necessarily skilled in the things that you were expected to do. There was the expectation that you would never have time off. And you worked basically from the beginning of two through to after Christmas. And then you could have some time

00:04:56.359 - 00:05:11.010

off the holidays. But that was it. And how can I just ask you when you say you worked in parish? Is that just one? No, it was two days a week. And that was the norm for all students as we were called, we went to parish

00:05:11.019 - 00:05:31.980

on Wednesday and more colleagues organized lectures. So, but I think on Wednesday mornings, they lectured in Hebrew philosophy so that most women didn't do those subjects and we didn't therefore miss out on the lecture. Mhm And uh within those Wednesday, Wednesday and Sunday periods, we were

00:05:31.989 - 00:05:50.059

involved in all sorts of parish routines. For instance, on Wednesday, I spent the whole day visiting and then at four o'clock in the afternoon, talking after school girls on Sundays, uh I had to be encouraged to be eight o'clock service. We then go in the morning

00:05:50.070 - 00:06:10.790

prayer for my Sunday school. We go to a pre place for lunch visiting in the afternoon, a youth fellowship at 12 o'clock evening prayer. It was a long day and collapsed. Yeah, a long day. And um so did the minister set out this timetable for you?

00:06:10.799 - 00:06:25.600

And then for the year you virtually just ran with it. Is that what happened? I met with the minister once uh a week for prayer, we pray about the work of the parish. And he would give me at that stage, the list of people that I

00:06:25.609 - 00:06:42.920

was to visit in that week, the list was made up of what were called hospital slips in those days. Uh A person would be in hospital, their name would be filled in on a form and it would be sent to the local rector and you would

00:06:42.929 - 00:06:57.929

follow those people. And the expectation was that I would just do that. He didn't ever talk to me about what I did or what I say what I do. But we did make the, so he didn't find out how you'd gone with those people. I mean,

00:06:57.940 - 00:07:14.670

you just got a new vest or just follow through. He was happy to have the yellow slip back with my initials on the back. I had to make contact with this person. Ok. So, um did you just w with most of the girls who came in

00:07:14.679 - 00:07:30.109

to Dechan House? Did they have much experience? Did many of them feel as inadequate as you did? Do you feel or were you particularly? It's hard for me to judge. I think probably most of them had a better understanding of what would be involved in that

00:07:30.119 - 00:07:45.399

when they came to college and many of them were coming in order to go into that work. Whereas I, I came in order to go back uh as a teacher rather than as a parish worker, I think so that this was a whole new experience for

00:07:45.410 - 00:08:04.529

me, I think, because I was a young Christian too, that made a big difference. Most of the women here then would have been Christians 10 years or so. So, just thinking about the sort of pressures that you experienced at parish, um, any others that you'd like

00:08:04.540 - 00:08:25.700

to mention, there seems to be that feeling of, uh, just doing things that you, um, hadn't learned about, uh, any other pressures that you felt. Well, yes, I suppose inadequacy was probably the greatest one. And then I think having to struggle with continuing to do something

00:08:25.709 - 00:08:42.619

I really hated and persevering in that through much. Was there, were there any other people in the parish that you thought you could talk to or uh could you talk to people, students or did you really carry that around? Now, there's another student dick in the

00:08:42.630 - 00:09:05.250

parish and I used to talk to her, but I found it difficult to explain to people what I was going through because I don't think I really understood it myself. Gosh, hard to admit that you, you, if you think you're the only, well, did you actually

00:09:05.260 - 00:09:30.770

learn much about ministry from your time in parish or was it a negative, entirely negative experience? Well, I learned that I didn't think I was suitable and I learned that it was hard work. And I think I also found yes, that I, I felt that if

00:09:30.780 - 00:09:49.750

this was what was involved in parish work. That really wasn't what I'd be interested in doing. So, I suppose I learned a bit about what parish work involved at some levels anyway. Right. Uh, and, uh, so you'd really determine by the time you've time parish ministry,

00:09:49.760 - 00:10:08.789

that, that was one thing you definitely weren't going to do, wasn't going to do that. Well, just, um, this is really leading on to the next question. Um, there seems to have been a concentration on your parish experience and I guess the other two areas were

00:10:08.799 - 00:10:26.270

hospital chaplaincy work and teaching religious education in school. Do you feel that you're equipped for any other sort of full time Christian work that you might do? For example, if you had wanted to go out with C MS on the field and be involved in evangelism,

00:10:26.280 - 00:10:46.109

was there any help in those areas or was it restricted? Well, I, we did go on college missions in much the same way as uh students do these days and there was some experience of evangelism from those missions, but as in missions these days, as well,

00:10:46.119 - 00:11:07.869

there's not great instruction given that it's a sort of get in there and do it, type of instructions in it. And that's what it was then. But that would have been, I think, uh I was reasonably well equipped theologically. That was because I did THL and

00:11:07.880 - 00:11:25.469

BD. Therefore, I came out, I think with a reasonable theological understanding, but I don't think I'd gained at all in, in terms of skills in ministry. Do you think you were aware of that? Was that something that you could have verbalized and saw you needed? Or

00:11:25.479 - 00:11:44.349

is there just this feeling of whatever it is? I can't do it? I think for me, that was more the thing. I think my experience in parish have been so negative that I couldn't even think about going into parish. Had there been someone to really talk

00:11:44.359 - 00:12:02.159

that through who could give some perspective on what I've been through that might be a different situation. Was it normal for people to only have one parish of their um, parish experience? No, most would have had two and possibly three. So there might have been more

00:12:02.169 - 00:12:22.549

variety. Why is it that you had such limited variety? Was there some reason that you stayed in? Partly because the first year was such a disaster. And I've been receiving money as a student throughout that year and I felt that I hadn't really fulfilled my job

00:12:22.690 - 00:12:43.109

there. And so I, so I stayed on for the next part or most of the next year without pay. And then I did one more in some ways, I was redressing the, did you feel that there was any improvement or it was really just a cycle

00:12:43.119 - 00:13:02.609

of the same grind because of no instruction, you just feel like you were continuing, making the same mistakes. But I think where teaching skills were involved with the fellowship group and the after school girls club there, I ran with that funding very easily because I was

00:13:02.619 - 00:13:23.320

a teacher and had training in those. I never ever really conquered. Uh, what I did when I visited, I continued to be trapped into being a nice person. I think, you know, I wasn't able to work out. I won't be ok. And, uh, something as amorphous

00:13:23.330 - 00:13:36.559

as visiting, I guess it's very much seen as a part of things, but people don't talk about much. Did you find that it seem, other people seem to just coast with that and it was never something we ever discussed or talked about. I think a lot

00:13:36.570 - 00:13:52.630

of students, uh, enjoyed it. I think it was a particular type of visiting that I was involved in. As I look back now, I could see how that count as an me opportunities because they're all visits concerned with making contact with people who weren't churchgoers weren't

00:13:52.640 - 00:14:10.659

attending church who were just with the right person doing this. I think a lot could be done with it. But at the same time, there's a lot of negativity involved and rejection because you're just don't want to see you. So you do need support groups, I

00:14:10.669 - 00:14:33.570

think regarding, and do you think that that experience too, just that lack of support was unusual for you or do you think for most of the women who are at college they were really going it alone in most of their situations. Well, I don't think churches

00:14:33.580 - 00:14:57.919

have changed enormously and ministers were busy. The cat who really is someone who comes in really just to do things that the minister perhaps is not able to do. He doesn't give them and still we don't think it's comp to people with having another female deaconess

00:14:57.929 - 00:15:15.549

at the same church. She said, um, was the encouragement for you two to pray or get together or was even there because you had your areas of responsibility and she had her, yeah, she was at the branch church and I was at the main church, but

00:15:15.559 - 00:15:35.859

we met for some time in college to pray about what we were. But she was very good at the work. She went not to work in parishes years after it was difficult. Reflecting on my own experiences with someone who was loving food, right? And did any

00:15:35.869 - 00:15:54.809

of the uh staff at college ever really talk to you about how you were coping in parish. You specifically rather than I was finding it difficult. But the solution opportunity was really, but I just had to do it rather than trying to analyze what was going

00:15:54.820 - 00:16:12.940

on and what I needed to learn. And I was really in some ways just uh exalted to keep going. Do you know uh whether there was any communication between the minister at your church and the people who were trying to help you in ministry at deacon

00:16:13.179 - 00:16:46.969

House, a very joint effort to, uh, help you or will, you know, encourage you to keep going? I think there probably was some communication. What you coming to the store? I've seen a report written but having a report didn't actually eventually. Well, I just, um, thinking

00:16:46.989 - 00:17:04.650

from those, how long is it since you were at college? About 15 years or so? Is it over, um, just wondered if you kept contact at all with any of the women who were at college training with you? Roughly at the same time. Yes, I have

00:17:04.660 - 00:17:22.869

had some contact. Sometimes it's only been through. We should be pres, no, I think I'd have a fairly good idea what happened to most of the students that I was in college even through to today. Right. Um, have you had any opportunity ever to talk to

00:17:22.880 - 00:17:46.790

them about their reflections on college and how they felt it equip them for ministry? Yes. I think the X Units organization was very strong in the day's meeting. Follow in college, uh, through that. I was able to see a lot of people that have trained here

00:17:47.339 - 00:18:05.750

and I think university, there was a sense of not having been trained in order to work in the industry. Even those people who seemed to be doing it quite well when they were going through. Yes, I think because what you encounter when you're working full time

00:18:05.760 - 00:18:26.959

ministry is different from what you encounter as a student, I think you come across a broader spread of people, all problems. And I think just the cost of daily demand of working in that field highlights all sorts of weaknesses that you perhaps not been able to

00:18:26.969 - 00:18:47.920

be aware of before. Have they, does anything stand out certain areas that they might have stated that they felt very inadequate in? Yes, I think, uh, as I've talked to women over the years, nearly always they say things like I wasn't taught how to do with,

00:18:49.540 - 00:19:15.489

he just lost the prison d and this is the clear, how do I do with somebody? I knew what to do with people with marriage problems. There's a sense of not understanding how you cope with. Right. And all those sorts of what we would term very

00:19:15.500 - 00:19:36.829

practical issues that people feel equipped to do. I suppose some, there's the argument that while you're studying, there's not that readiness to take in that sort of information because it hasn't always confronted you. Do you think that might be a factor in it that they, they

00:19:36.839 - 00:20:00.859

might not have been as ready to learn that while they were still studying? Yes, I think that that's, uh, that's highly probable. It's an interesting question, that one because I think it can be tackled. But it would seem to me that you have to do, say

00:20:00.869 - 00:20:31.510

something like bereavement counselor. Ok. You have to work out how six help people understand what's involved in those problems at some depth before I think people are ready to hear and in a lecture program, that sort of approach and it seems as though you've been taught

00:20:31.520 - 00:20:51.790

to about things that you already know about. Once you're actually in a situation with that, with this and everything you, it seems to disappear to set the lecture room but not the real life situation. Well, I guess this, um, that whole area of training probably leads

00:20:51.800 - 00:21:12.040

on to another question I have as to whether once these people have been involved in ministry, um over a period of years, whether there's been any continuing instruction or support for them, you mentioned uh ex students, um, perhaps you could just explain what that has done

00:21:12.050 - 00:21:49.680

and whether you think that's been inadequate. Well, the next Students Association has tried to run the students group, attempted to meet this man by running occasional conferences and any moment and they would try to tackle Tell Great Council. I've been, he worked ok about her experiences

00:21:49.689 - 00:22:14.790

and what she did and why for books. But that's really just questions. It was an attempt to other people's understanding to what perhaps could really good to check other than that. Uh I know some of encouraged with me, went on to do the CB A course.

00:22:16.060 - 00:22:44.560

It's your hospital. Could you just stay out there? Ok. What it's about? Uh Yes, it's, it's a course that uh helps people understand themselves and understand the needs of other people are introduced. Suppose psychology, the sorts of major areas of the crisis of people and second

00:22:44.589 - 00:23:07.530

to deal with, you know, I'm doing, I, and you are super, I watch because you counsel people, talk to them, you have to write up the court, the people, the women who did this, if, you know, some on a part time basis, were they really supported

00:23:07.540 - 00:23:36.219

by the parish financially to do this? One person was and I was seen as any the other couple and I did that. Yes. Right. Um Now they're more instructive type of situations. Um And you said the ex students had a one day year meeting. Uh Was

00:23:36.229 - 00:24:02.349

there much across the board? Support of people maybe informally or any formal attempts to help people who are in isolated situations? Not that I know of that doesn't hold on. I think it's important to not too that uh the cruelty in service days have increasingly, I've

00:24:02.359 - 00:24:33.010

been able to women to attend. I'm not quite sure how far back to attend, but I know used to in the last 10 years increasingly about it to, to repeat. But again, what? Well, thanks. Um I'm collecting perhaps if I just ask you a few questions

00:24:33.319 - 00:24:55.170

in helping compare the time you were at college and the training women's ministry. Now, um What changes have you noticed? Perhaps even in the, basically in the, the number of women offering for training, it might have fluctuated over that time. I just briefly tell me that.

00:24:55.760 - 00:25:27.869

Well, when I came to college Dean's House, which holds about 67 people was basically filled with women studying from the history. In the 10 years. Following 67 there was a a reasonable drop in numbers. So that by the time I came to college here, five, you're

00:25:27.880 - 00:25:53.880

so on certain people resident and probably two or three over and above that who were perhaps 15, whereas in 1989 we were expecting to take in about 31st year students, our numbers are beginning to increase again. Have you got any ideas? Why? I think there was

00:25:53.890 - 00:26:17.020

such a dramatic, yes, I have 22 off the top of my head. They haven't been verified by research, but I think one factor would have been the introduction of vehicle code for women, which they made it far more expensive for parishes to employ of her sister.

00:26:17.859 - 00:26:40.599

And previously para sisters have been reasonably attractive because of a lower rate of pain. But once equal pain was gained by you to be treated to cure it in terms of it's a 10. So that's one factor. And then the second factor I think, which was

00:26:40.619 - 00:27:09.709

of equal importance was the, um, the rise of feminism in the seventies and the threat. But that was, I think to the traditional ways in which women the same by men and the threat that it was to ministry within the church, people were unsure of whether

00:27:09.719 - 00:27:28.260

or not it was right to employ women, whether or not women should be involved in industry. And that anxiety I think was reflected in the drop in numbers. It was a reasonable lack of encouragement given to them to travel during this period of anxiety. Well, just

00:27:28.270 - 00:27:46.589

what you said, those cheers and equal pay and um there is still a fair amount of turbulence on the women's issue in this diocese. At least. Have you got any ideas on why you think the numbers of sr Well, I think there is still some turbulence,

00:27:46.599 - 00:28:06.469

but at the same time, there is noticeably, I think within the Sydney Diocese, a greater optimism about the brightness of women being involved in industry. And I think that that's been increasing since say about 8384. And I think we just began to see that filtering through

00:28:06.680 - 00:28:21.329

to uh women in the back of the, of the industry and train. Have you seen more married women come in? Has this been a factor I assume back then? It was all women when I came. It was all single women. Yes, there are more women. I

00:28:21.349 - 00:28:39.060

think this is a good thing because married women have been for a very long time, the very ST workers in your church and often a hidden factor in ministry and churches. And it's great to see these women now having the opportunity to study and gain some

00:28:39.069 - 00:29:03.719

training and I think we should increase. Right. Well, continuing on with the changes that you might have noticed over those years. Just thinking of the time that women spend in parish ministry now while they're at college. Um, have you noticed that there might be any different

00:29:03.729 - 00:29:25.430

expectations on them with the sort of jobs that they might do or, um, just their ability to do certain things? I think they're not expected to work such long hours on the whole, I suppose. And then I think they are included in doing more of the,

00:29:25.439 - 00:29:47.359

in church thing so that they will occasionally read services or take part in reads or read the prayers and even in some cases preaching. But all of those things to my dad as a student. So that's one change. But other than that, I think it's much

00:29:47.369 - 00:30:08.750

the same visiting is still a high priority, helping with some school youth groups. Those sorts of things are still hard for. Do you think the difference, um, in the involvement, more lay people have perhaps given, uh, women more support in parishes rather than the, you're the

00:30:08.760 - 00:30:30.839

professional, where to be dealt with and that you're all in ministry together. I think people feel more support there. I don't think, I really embarrassed. I think there are people who are more involved in ministry in some parishes and I think if, uh, a student goes

00:30:30.849 - 00:30:50.329

to those parishes, yes, there would be that sense of all being involved in ministry together. But I still think that's the exception. I think um, students are still here very much as the professionals coming in. All right. All right. Um, well, I was just thinking about

00:30:50.560 - 00:31:07.150

going from the parishes. Um Oh, can I just ask you one thing? Were you paid, uh when you worked, you were paid the first year when you worked? Was that normal for women to be paid as co workers? They all got paid? Right. And what about

00:31:07.160 - 00:31:22.219

uh now or just in the last few years? Has that been normal for women to be paid? Yes, I think so. I think these days they get the same pay as fellows. They were when I was in college, we didn't, we got a lesson. All right.

00:31:23.569 - 00:31:41.430

OK. Well, what about the training ministry, training, thinking uh back here uh a college uh has there been much different? You mentioned a few things about what happened? I don't know if you know within what college I think that there seem to be more opportunities for

00:31:41.449 - 00:32:01.790

training the industry as I look at the courses of the uh the courses in psychology, evangelism, Christian education. There are a whole range of things that happen across the four years that a person may be. So that seems to with indigenous house, I suppose in some

00:32:01.800 - 00:32:27.329

ways, we again trying to provide training for women here so that we have been concentrating in the first year on helping people how to smoke and do that to teach people about Christianity. And we've been concentrating on evangelists so that we are attempting to do those

00:32:27.339 - 00:32:47.550

sorts of things. Again, there are changes, millions of parish experiences have changed too for women in first year. And then we've been trying to place them with a woman who's working within a parish so that they can observe what a woman actually does if she is

00:32:47.560 - 00:33:09.589

to work in the, in the parish, and they observe within a small group and they go, they what's happening within the on the visits and discuss what their programs are happening within the church, the sort of strategies employed by the minister of aims and what they're

00:33:09.599 - 00:33:31.689

doing to those aims. So there's some attempt being made to help students rise or is happening in the parishes that they're new and to reflect upon what they see. And then if they are able to, we like to see them taking the Bible study being critiqued

00:33:31.959 - 00:33:58.099

by that and having the opportunity to do you think it's necessary to have extra or different training, ministry training for the women um than what is given to the men. I think I feel that women still do things we perish that are different from those things

00:33:58.109 - 00:34:17.560

that fellows do. For instance, a man in ministry, you spend a lot of his work, preparing for giving servant as well as doing all the other things that are involved in being a minister. Whereas a woman may have preparation for a b study period or she

00:34:17.570 - 00:34:37.928

may have preparation for a talk. Occasionally she doesn't carry quite the same uh preparation weight as the man does. And she seems to be involved more in uh teaching scripture classes. She won't be involved in or visiting. She might be involved in more 1 to 1

00:34:37.938 - 00:35:02.629

work training. I was in the church to do things and I think she need to have this school, those sorts of areas strengthened. And I don't perceive that really being very, oh, I want to know what happened. What we hope is progress. Um Now we talked

00:35:02.639 - 00:35:21.129

a bit about when people are in the parish uh working. Now. Um There's that ex students group, does that still operate? And is anything more done than the one day a week conference at the moment? Well, they stopped having these one day a week, two years

00:35:21.199 - 00:35:46.070

ago and continued them over quite a long time. And the ex students group now provides a quarterly newsletter of information basically of what people are doing, but they also provide a, a prayer link service so that if you want to be prayed for the work, you

00:35:46.129 - 00:36:08.540

are about to be prayed for, you can link into that. So that's probably the greatest service that they uh dig house is beginning to take up some responsibility for training people after they move or at least providing opportunities for, and I can still tap into the

00:36:09.199 - 00:36:29.979

clergy in service training days, but really just beginning to run a one day conference we have that first one in. And is that um going to be similar, similar sorts of things that the annual one day conference had or have you got any different emphases that

00:36:29.989 - 00:36:54.909

you envisage? I think we'll try to do less than the students did and try to do what we do in raising. So, rather than skating over. And another super, I think we'll try to go for a narrow area, study in something, but I won't be right,

00:36:54.989 - 00:37:19.850

but I am taking the brown. So I just wondered if you feel as you've talked to women in uh parishes at the moment. Is there that general optimism among them also that you mentioned had been coming from 1983. Do you think the women in ministry are

00:37:19.860 - 00:37:38.320

feeling it or it's more the people who are looking ahead to their first years of ministry after training that have this enthusiasm? I think that some of it's been knocked out of people by those turbulent years. Yes, I think, yes, I think it's a difficult question

00:37:38.330 - 00:37:59.750

to answer. I think there are still lots of battles to be fought in some ways rather as they work in parishes. There's still a lot of wrong thinking about what they can do and they will therefore run into opposition from people and that's demoralizing. It's difficult

00:37:59.760 - 00:38:19.179

to deal with. So that's still there. But um, there is a certain sense of a greater support, I think coming from parishes and a greater encouragement to uh get trained and to the lecturing ministry. And there seems to be a greater desire to have women working

00:38:19.189 - 00:38:40.790

in churches than it has been for some time. Have you been able to pick up any, um, greater, I guess, improved attitude to the women's students by the general student body? The more college do you think that there's a, um, a respect for each other's ministry?

00:38:40.810 - 00:39:03.360

Do you notice that? I think there's a growing respect. Yes, I think again, there are lots of misunderstandings, I think often, not often, but some, some people would still see. It is a strange thing that women take an interesting ministry and I just, a series of

00:39:03.370 - 00:39:29.810

that as me. Right. So that you'll find occasion being made about, um, how good it is to see someone so, taking something so seriously they really moved out, right. So you can still be the unusual person bit different. And who's the norm? Is that the idea?

00:39:30.669 - 00:39:49.550

Um, well, would you like to say anything just within, uh, conclusion of, um, what you see in the future happening? It maybe the development of many of the things that you've mentioned. But I just wondered if you just to give you the opportunity, if there's anything

00:39:49.560 - 00:40:11.010

that I haven't specifically asked about? Well, I think with the Deacon of Women in Hemos. Uh It will be great changes for women in the ministry training. One of the changes will be, I think ultimately responsibility for that will pass off completely so that we will

00:40:11.020 - 00:40:34.010

no longer we at deacon's house will no longer have any oversight of that area of training. I think within more theological college, there will probably be needs to streamline training a little bit so that those who will the uh so called Permanent Vacant will be trained

00:40:34.020 - 00:40:59.909

slightly differently from those who will go and do directors of permissions. So that and then my day within the train, I suppose, more vocational training, right? And when you mentioned there that more college would take it over completely. Um Are you implying that there will be

00:40:59.919 - 00:41:26.030

no women involved in the training of women going through? Oh, no, I think more college would um one if not more than one, more than two participate in that training. I'm already a more college, but to some extent and, but I realize the need to have

00:41:26.050 - 00:41:44.729

a, so you're already seeing with the permanent deacons, there would be men and women involved in who would be in that situation. Yes, I think that that's what I think the way would be very many, but I think there will be some. Do you feel personally

00:41:44.739 - 00:42:09.020

that that's a positive as far as the future of women's ministry that this has been recognized as a very should be recognized as a way of ministry in parishes for men and women. Is that positive in your thinking? I have mixed feelings about it. I think

00:42:09.030 - 00:42:30.340

I'll turn uh it isn't possible because it continues to put another barrier between uh so called black people and those who are regarded as the ministers in the congregation. I suppose. I would just prefer to see one head of a congregation and then others who assist

00:42:30.350 - 00:42:52.340

him without. Right. And that's more peculiar than you than you. Well, that's on the area of deacon. Was there anything else, any other area you wanted to? Well, thanks very much, but um there's quite a good overview of the changes and some of the things that

00:42:52.350 - 00:42:55.810

haven't changed over the last 15 to 20 years.